Ezra Klein – Moral Horror of Our Age by The Simple Heart w/ Wayne Hsiung

I went into trial in North Carolina with big ambitions: arguing in court, for the first time in my life, that animals are not property, but living creatures with rights.
But that came crashing to a halt in the first few minutes of my opening statement. The judge cut me off, ordered the jurors out of the courtroom, and threatened to remove me from representing myself (and possibly send me to jail) if I continued to make the case for animal rights.
The judge, you see, had ruled on Day 1 of the trial that the dire medical emergency facing the animals was not relevant to the trial. Because of that, witnesses to what happened at the farm, including even me, could not testify about the medical care needed by the animals.
This was simply a case about whether a goat was stolen, the prosecution argued. How they were treated before that point was simply irrelevant. And, in direct violation of my constitutional rights, the judge agreed – and denied us a right to a full and complete defense in court.
“If I can’t say why I was there, you might as well lock me up right now,” I said.
And, on numerous occasions, that nearly happened.
But it didn’t. And somehow, though I was convicted of two felonies, I managed to get through this trial with no prison time, and with unprecedented media attention for the right to rescue.
The backstory of how this all unfolded hasn’t really been told. And that’s why I invited my friend and attorney Jon Frohnmayer – whose family has a fascinating history at the intersection of repression, environmentalism, and animal rights – onto the Green Pill podcast to discuss what happened, and why.
You’ll hear about the dramatic moments where Jon and I feared we might end with a mistrial.
You’ll hear about how the jurors in court were moved, either to hate us (perhaps to the point of wishing violence against me) or love us, for our compassion towards animals.
And you’ll hear Jon and I engage in some philosophical speculation about why people behave how they do. Maybe, we say to one another, everything in life just comes down to the fear of death.
So many have asked us what happened at trial. If you’re looking for answers, give this a podcast a listen – and share it with a friend, if you like what you hear.

I went into trial in North Carolina with big ambitions: arguing in court, for the first time in my life, that animals are not property, but living creatures with rights.
But that came crashing to a halt in the first few minutes of my opening statement. The judge cut me off, ordered the jurors out of the courtroom, and threatened to remove me from representing myself (and possibly send me to jail) if I continued to make the case for animal rights.
The judge, you see, had ruled on Day 1 of the trial that the dire medical emergency facing the animals was not relevant to the trial. Because of that, witnesses to what happened at the farm, including even me, could not testify about the medical care needed by the animals.
This was simply a case about whether a goat was stolen, the prosecution argued. How they were treated before that point was simply irrelevant. And, in direct violation of my constitutional rights, the judge agreed – and denied us a right to a full and complete defense in court.
“If I can’t say why I was there, you might as well lock me up right now,” I said.
And, on numerous occasions, that nearly happened.
But it didn’t. And somehow, though I was convicted of two felonies, I managed to get through this trial with no prison time, and with unprecedented media attention for the right to rescue.
The backstory of how this all unfolded hasn’t really been told. And that’s why I invited my friend and attorney Jon Frohnmayer – whose family has a fascinating history at the intersection of repression, environmentalism, and animal rights – onto the Green Pill podcast to discuss what happened, and why.
You’ll hear about the dramatic moments where Jon and I feared we might end with a mistrial.
You’ll hear about how th